voting for bad images

i think folks are voting for lesser quality images to improve their odds of winning....since we can see those we duel against its kinda obvious, is my work perfect NO, but no way a blurry poorly composed shot should beat a good composition that is sharp and appealing.....i don't understand...is there a way for admin to see this too? seems a bit unfair to me....
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  • Here we go again, same old story - Voting for BAD IMAGES.

    My latest example: Running:

    Image:

    http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...

    lost 4 times in a row (and who knows how many times before) to following image...

    http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...

    Since I do PRO sport photography, and am not any kind of newbie to the trade (46 years constantly photographing), let me explain why I consider this a los to a BAD PHOTOGRAPHY and give some clue to interested people about technical merits of photo quality.

    1. Framing. There are simple and pure rules of framing people. Where to frame and where not to frame. The "4 times winner" falls on the first look. It IS a very badly framed or cropped image. You simply don't cut the main subject's head and the legs the way it is done here... and don't cut half of a close standing person...

    2. Camera motion - blur... seen on the background and peoiple. VERY POOR JOB

    3. Aperture and shutter speed: You don't need f/8, because your main subject would look fine even at f/4 and the rest would be then naturally blurred.

    Shooting sport scenes with any speed less than 1/400 sec is to risky and can produce such a poor and blurry result as seen on that "winning" image. Set ISO to higher number, shot at higher speeds... PITTY

    4. Color aberations all over the image... Almost white (burned) sky, contrasted to people's figures... VERY DISSAPOINTING

    Now,if you're interested, go and take a closer look of (my) "looser" image (one of a whole bunch, some sold to newspapers and portals).

    SIMILAR lack of understanding or - eventual BIAS - happens day by day, to many authors that know and are able to and really produce and present here on Pixoto their good photographic works.

    When you get on your monitors the images that you can't judge by some firm technical and expressive standards of photography craft and art, please do the fairest of all things: PRESS "SKIP" and vote on the next duel, be it flowers, architecture, cute puppies or whatever you know more about.

    And Most Important: FORGET the details about the motive (who, where, when) and try to look and weigh only the craft / art side of the images in duel.

    Greetings to All Players and Pixoto Crew from Croatia
    • view 2 more comments
    • Yeah the proper image won that, sorry.
    • I agree you dont use flash on runner ever. But I actually like the second image better, sorry.
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  • 1
    Another example how people DO NOT VIEW THE IMAGES, while voting.

    http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...

    This is Photoshop (art or no art, irrelevant). In a real shooting against the sun(set), any bird or object would be back lit,and not front lit, like this FAKE BIRD in the poorly set up scene! Such lightning of the object, here the bird, is practically impossible if you don't have a set of reflectors by, in which case you can forget any bird flying so close to you and camera! :(

    I reported the image as PHOTOSHOP, and not LANDSCAPE & NATURE > WATERSCAPES.

    Dear Players, please do at least some minimal effort to analyze the images in duel and find and do not award such cheap tricks that "CATCH THE EYE", just to "get by and get very quickly into "orbit" (660 plus points)!!!!

    By letting so blatantly photoshoped images into contest, by awarding them vith our votes, we don't do anything good to photography, to the community!!

    Please, Stop Being Blind and start voting with some responsibility!!
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  • I’m sad
    I think this is absolutely still a problem. My best guess is that there several causes:

    1) A number of people are running voting scripts/macros and that reduces the success of an image to a coin flip.

    2) Deliberate vote worse voting.

    The argument that Pixoto can detect it somehow because it appears as an anomaly isn't accurate. The problem there is, when it becomes the majority of voting it doesn't appear as an anomaly anymore - it looks normal.

    The site is getting worse it seems like sometimes, not better I'm afraid.
    • I'll have to disagree with the technical elements of this Mark.

      1) some people do vote that way - it's easy to find because they don't vote like the vast majority of our users. Their votes are discounted but still show up in history so it can be deceiving. We are going to remove the bad votes from history (i.e. if they don't count we won't show them) early next month with the launch of Version 1.

      2) While it is true that if you had a incredibly large group of users voting always for the worst images they would become the new norm - that clearly hasn't happened. I just spent a half an hour going through the top photos from this week on the site and while I could quibble with many of the placements it is incredibly clear that the cream is rising - some of the photos simply take my breath away. With thousands of unique voters daily on the site it just wouldn't be possible to get a large enough voting block to change the norm. So long as a new norm isn't established then we will always be able to tell who is voting against the good images.

      I don't want to sound dismissive. I take voting irregularities and quality very seriously. I only take issue with the points you made above because I don't think the system actually works that way.

      I do want to look into any way we can improve the system and am curious why you think the site is getting worse. Do you have some examples from your experience we could take a look at? Do you feel this way based on your experiences with your own photos or with the quality of the images that are on the top of the leaderboard? Any feedback helps. Thanks!
    • I appreciate your response and insight Jason. I base my opinions only on observation but there are numerous examples on the Leaderboard every day. I have, on some days, voted in as many as 300+ image duels. I very closely follow not just my own submissions but several of the top categories as well. I repeatedly see inferior images winning duels over clearly superior images. It's not even a subjective quality in some of the photos but a clear technical superiority as well.

      I agree that there are some tremendous images on Pixoto but there are some horrendous images as well. It should not come as a surprise when a good image wins over a poor one. When it routinely and repeatedly happens it's not a coincidence when the opposite is true as well. I can't validate my opinions with any real data but user perception is an important variable to consider and the sentiment isn't isolated from what I see here on the community boards.

      The changes you mentioned here and elsewhere for Version 1 may address some of the issues. I'm not sure how to feel about discounted votes. What if my vote is discounted and I just don't know it? Removing the display of the discounted votes, to me says it's enough of problem that it's being factored into the scoring and there is an attempt to counter the effect, meaning that there is an effect.

      I wish the changes or improvements would come sooner than later.
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  • 1
    I have intentionally stayed away from the site hoping that the voting issues would be fixed. I submitted 4 images a bit ago and watched them lose to images that were out of focus, poorly lit with terrible composition. It is obvious that the issues are not fixed. Pixoto responses keep saying they are catching those intentionally voting for bad images but they are not. It's pretty clear they aren't. How sad that something meant to be fun has turned into what it has. It has clearly made me lose heart in this site and I am seriously thinking about deleting my account.
    • I'm sorry to hear that Bobbie. If you want to send examples I'll look into they specifics and see if we can figure out what is going on.

      I noticed that you said that the images were technically inferior to yours. Mostly I think voters on Pixoto don't judge so much on the technical aspects of the image but on the how much the subject engages them and the story it tells (the average person takes only 3 seconds to decide which is better). Can you comment on how the subjects of the images compared?

      I'm deeply devoted to making Pixoto the best it can be and so any and all feedback is valuable.

      Thanks
    • Jason last I checked you could only pull up four comparison images. It is difficult to give you data when the data is no longer there. Knowing that there are so many complaints should be evidence that there is indeed a problem.
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  • Although I earlier doubted that there was a problem with nationalist or cultural voting then I doubt no longer. The ties between Indonesia, the Philippines and countries in that region are very strong and I believe that even if they are not deliberately voting for images that are to do with their own countries then I now believe that they vote for images that they feel more comfortable with, and that meet the expectations of their cultural stereotypes of beauty, masculinity, femininity, and general memes, tropes, norms and values that matter to them.

    Culturally, the internet is not yet the great uniter across all cultural divides and this is expressed in the voting... even when they aren't just downright voting for their own region (which does happen sometimes).
    • Jannette - I thought this might be the case myself. We see a lot of Indonesian images all over the leaderboard. However the fact is the Indonesians, on average, vote the same way as Americans and Brits (Canadian's seem to have a bias against themselves for some reason).

      That said - the bigger reason why you see so many images towards the top of the leaderboard is not bias but quantity. We are INCREDIBLY popular in Indonesia with nearly 1/5 of our members residing there and 1/5 of the images received being from the region. Indonesians not any more likely to win an award than a photographer from any other region.

      I hope this helps.
    • I agree with Jason, in that it's not likely rigged or intentional but cultural taste. It's a shame though, since it's difficult to score in some categories like portrait with American photos, since that category is so dominated by Indonesians, and that our images are not likely as pleasing to them. And wow...20% of Pixoto members are from Indonesia...certainly explains a lot.
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  • [Addendum]

    I also wish to note that I'm a strong advocate and activist when it comes to direct democracy in politics and have written papers on the subject, so this has been a very interesting learning experience for me - to see it put into practise within precise limits of photo competition.

    In diverse cultural semi-direct democracies that have peoples from several cultural backgrounds there is a levelling of the way via opposing initiatives where things get ironed out before anything goes to referendum. We have no such procedures here and we're seeing the dominance of one cultural group and their norms, memes and values over another group.

    The intention of Pixoto is good but people are complex beings when it comes to favourites and cultural preferences. I think some checks and balances need to be put in place before we start voting so that we have a more level playing field. We also need to talk to the photographers from other cultures more so that we and them understand and can relate to each other more without dismissing any element of the human experience in our photographs simply because it is beyond our experience *specifically* if not *generally* - as human beings of all cultures share the same needs and requirements of food, shelter, acceptance of their voices, inclusion, education, to have a mate, to love, and to follow ones Will...

    Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
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  • I’m disappointed
    1
    I put a pic that is just as good and many like it are up to over 700 in score, but mine did not make it to that score, why? it is because of the flawed voting, with so many voting against you, especially americans to give their friends the advantage, the voting does not work fairly at all. You see the same people at the top all the time, year after year, month after month. I stopped uploading for awhile, went on a trip, to take some pics came back and decided to test the voting. It is disappointing. Redbubble.com is a better sight for competitions and for selling ones works. You can not solicit for votes, here they solicit for votes all the time.
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  • If you guys want to see a REAL photo website, check out 1x.com ... now that is a place for artwork. That site is not diluted with worthless crap snapshots like this one.
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  • I'm very disappointed as well. I loved the old pixoto but now the fun is gone
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  • After last two months of "cruising" with different thematic images through various (sub)categories, I found a very interesting point, which is described also in some other topics, but I think that main focus belongs here.

    Many of our Indonesian fellow photographers, as well many other too, seem to be scattering the one and the same type of image to various categories, aiming to win and re-win, as many times they can! One example is the series of photos of children playing in or jumping in the water (river?). Instead of submitting ALL of these images to People / Children, the same type of image, or the same series of images, appear in so many different categories, making it pointless to count.

    There are many more motives being spread through numerous variation over almost each and every (sub)category.

    I have the moral dilemma. Some of these images are good, indeed, at least from technical side. Being obviously deliberately submitted to wrong categories, these images start to annoy me to a point of considering them: BAD IMAGES. Not because their authors origin from any particular part of the world, but because it is obvious that these authors try to outsmart all of us with their "clever tactics".

    So, my moral dilemma is: how to vote in such case.

    a) to award the image that is correctly categorized, even if it is not exactly on the same technical level as other that's intentionally wrongly categorized?

    b) to award the wrongly categorized image with my vote and help it win the prize, even knowing that it will hurt people that play by the rules?

    c) to skip and don't let either image collect my voice? In that case, I don't reward neither the technically better, nor the properly categorized image.

    Since the reporting of so many wrongly categorized images don't seem to be helping, I am really confused about what is right and what i wrong.

    In traditional photo contests, it is normal to dismiss any images that do not respond to the rules. And it happens before actual judging starts. Here, we have to deal with the ever larger problem in a fraction of time.

    I'd like to hear your opinion on this, as well as Jason's. It will be important to have a recommendation or share our thoughts on this subject, because, a wrongly categorized image, and specially when it is clear to be so deliberately done, consists to me - a BAD IMAGE.

    But, I myself, may be wrong and therefore biased.

    Sunny greetings to All of you fellow Togs! :)
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  • I’m pissed off.
    Check out this decision:

    http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...

    won against this (mine):

    http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...

    I've re-submitted this picture several times but each round I lose once or twice to something that's poorly lit, out of focus, over-saturated, badly composed... and I'm just tired of it. I can't be bothered playing any more because I don't have fun here now - I just get mad at the idiots. There's too many voting trolls here... so I'm off. Bye Pixoto! Please delete my account, and stuff your awards!
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  • I’m Still pissed off..
    You know why I use Pixoto? Not to win awards... I liked the feedback. Note the past tense here? I liked it that I could put an image up and get a pretty good impression as to how good it actually was instead of relying on my own subjective preferences. That's why I was here... but now I can't trust pixoto to give me that feedback any more.

    Yes - perhaps the top images are the cream and that's still rising but I didn't come here to win an award. I just wanted accurate feedback on my pictures from the tog community.
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    • The one photo is so very bad, lots of noise in the shot, and it is also very blurry it is really horrible. To me you have the proof about the voting not working. Same people win etc. Something is not right about this sight, and I have seen stollen works on this sight. I am also concerned about works being stollen from this sight.
    • Yes, I'm going to stop listing examples now. I think there's enough evidence here, and I'm sure that everyone will have had enough similar experiences to mine that they'll tell pixoto this isn't an isolated incident.

      I'll pop back in a couple of months to see if anything's changed, but for now - chow, bye, and buena suerte - Pixoto.
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  • I lost to these too -

    (twice in a row to the battered purple Jakata meanie!)
    http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...

    http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...
    (I'm not sure exactly what fate this poor flower suffered (is that disco glitter and glue?) but I feel terribly sorry for it...)

    And btw - I'm only pulling out the really glaring examples here.
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  • I agree with Janette. Good that you spent time to look against which pics you lost, I even don't do this anymore because I cannot change anything. I'm on Pixoto almost one year but it changed too much. I've lost interest and don't upload any pictures any more until it changes.
    To Making memories Photography: I also like RedBubble. Real comments and also a chance to sell your pics. By trhe way, I've found you on RedBubble (I'm a member as well, under mimeen)
    And, Tigi I agree with you as well. I don't know how to play the duels when I see a picture hundreds of time or in a wrong category. I skip as well but it's not fair for the other one. It's a real dilemma but what can we do when the fun is gone?
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  • What really annoys me is not the fact of unfair voting, but the attempts to deny this problem.
    I'll have a look at RedBubble.
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  • I still see the issue on a daily basis. It's very frustrating. I've looked at several other websites as well and am trying to transition more work there. You can find me on 500px, RedBubble and 1x.com also (I really like the Critique on 1x but it's brutal).

    I'd love to see Pixoto refine and roll out their updates soon. The site is still the best conceptually, but the flaws are making it less and less fun. I pay less attention and spend less time here lately. That's something I'd be concerned with if I were the developers.
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  • I’m thankful, confident
    Your right about 1X being very critical, but is is constructive, the comments of how I can do better has helped me improve technically. For instance, I have a outdoor wedding coming up, at of all hours it is for 2p.m. You know how hard the mid day shooting can be. I have purchased some reflectors, and I am doing a lot of practicing during that time of day. Will look you up on Redbubble and 1x.
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  • I’m frustrated
    When are the changes going to be implement Jason? I don't think any of these issues are isolated incidents. I see the same problem every single day, across every category.

    It's absolutely happening and to ignore the problem is thumbing your nose at the community feedback. I'm getting more and more discouraged by losing to substandard images. I've literally gone though 1000 points on resubmission (because you've suggested that instead of buying more votes) and I'm getting tired of wasting the effort.

    Even using the Report This Image seems to do nothing anymore. I use it constantly on miscategorized photos, watermarked photos, and duplicate photos and they keep cropping up.

    I'm already a paid member on 500px. Maybe it's time I abandon Pixoto and pony up a few more $$$ to be a paid member on 1x.com as well as an alternative. The lack of progress here is driving down my enthusiasm and I don't really need that. I'm disappointed because the site was wildly addicting.....until I spent more time here.
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    • This comment was removed on 2012-04-09.
      see the change log
    • This comment was removed on 2012-04-09.
      see the change log
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  • I totally agree with Mark. Voting for bad images, awards missing, stolen pictures, duplicates etc. is now the daily problem.
    Today, I looked at the first page: twice the same dog with very good ranking. What is the difference between these two pics? A little bit cropping? Very creative indeed. What a waste of time uploading different pictures. The trend is to take one picture and ... crop it, change the colors, put special effects on it, change it into black and white etc. etc. It seems to be the only way to get many awards.
    I don't know 500px but 1x.com is very good. You can also try photo.net. If you're a paid member you even get a website for your portfolio.
    I'm also very disappointed. Pixoto was addictive but now it's ... boring
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  • I’m frustrated
    Thank you Michelle.....Here's today's example in about 2 minutes of submission.....

    WINNING IMAGE - http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...

    WINNING IMAGE - http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...

    WINNING IMAGE - http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...

    LOSING IMAGE - http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...

    I'm not going to individually critique each photo but there are flaws in each one that the losing image does not have. Feel free to disagree with me. Maybe you vote based on different criteria. To me a shows just an example of the ongoing problem - the better image doesn't necessarily win consistently....and losing to several of these images in a row has a tremendous impact on your final score and the number of times the images is voted on.
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    • Mark, in this case I think a lot of people might vote against your image because it appears to have fractilius on it. Even though the site states that composites belong in Photoshop Art, I think there are a lot of members who feel applying filters such as this belong in Photoshop Art. I am not stating my position, I am only trying to figure it out :(
    • Hi Shirley, Thanks you for your feedback. I had to actually look up what Fractalius was to see what you meant if that tells you anything.

      My photo, in this case, is a blend of 3 photos of different exposures (HDR). In post processing it has some sharpening from CS5 and some desaturation from NIK Color EFX.

      The majority of images in the top of Architecture & Design are HDR composites. The degree to which they are processed is I guess where I draw the line whether to submit it as Photoshop Art or Fine Art etc. I don't personally think it's processed to the point that it looks like my quick Google search for Fractalius.

      I tend to agree that there are purist that wouldn't vote from HDR images. Some people either love it or hate it. I don't think I'm seeing that as much as I'm seeing intentional poor voting or bot/script voting for points.
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  • 1
    I'm starting to think the financial incentive at Pixoto is polluting judgement. If no cash prizes were involved, then I think judging would likely be based more on merit, not money. I think having no cash prizes it would help to stop those clicking through image duels mindlessly, since there would be no point to be on Pixoto except just to have your pictures judged by your peers. IMHO: Money...the root of all evil.
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  • I’m frustrated
    I'm not sure how long it takes to actually receive money but I have 50some Awards that I've not seen a nickle from yet and I have gone through the submission or claim process. I wonder if it's just the idea of prize money at stake for some people because you sure don't get it quick. I agree with Nathan that money makes people do things just to win.

    The draw for me has always been the volume of feedback you theoretically get in a very short amount of time and a measure of your photos against competition. I guess for me I just feel like the measuring part is not working right. I probably need to worry and visit less.

    I do appreciate the discussion from everyone!
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  • a few folks say they get feedback and that is why they like pixoto....
    where are they getting this feedback??? i dont have squat?
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  • where are folks getting feedback??? i am not getting squat
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  • Don't bother the only place I have gotten feedback is RedBubble.com and 1X and AmericanFineArts.com. This sight sucks.
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  • You can give comments on the photo...maybe thats what people mean?
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  • i know you CAN give comments but i have never gotten any real constructive criticism....just wondering how others are....cause they mention it here....that thats why they like the site....i would love to know why most of my stuff doenst do as well as some i see.....tips would be greatly appreciated!
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  • Theres lots of reasons and maybe not many have anything to do with the quality of your shots......I've just been looking through, theres duplicates all over the place, obvious photoshopped in the wrong catergory, some catergories where is not worth entering unless you are from the right place......
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  • Ok, my thoughts on reasons for voting for bad images are following:

    1. Yes, there are times when players vote for bad images in order to decrease the chances of the obviously better image to advance to the top.

    POSSIBLE SOLUTION: Pixoto should choose certain number of active players (according to their activity, quality of work, awards etc) and when they vote, their vote should be worth eg. 5 or 10 times more then normal vote. Those players SHOULD NOT KNOW they have that privilege because they might misuse it. In that way voting for bad images might be offset.

    2. During the image duels, images are of fairly small size, and many imperfections (blurriness, out of focus, bad composition etc.) are not so noticeable especially when players decide for which image to vote in the matter of a second or two. You can only notice those imperfections when you click on the image you just lost and see the larger sized version of the image.

    SOLUTION: Show larger size images during image duels.

    3. Image duels pages are sometimes not running flawlessly (it can be slow or overloaded pixoto server or internet connection itself). What I mean is that very often I click on the winning image and I don't get the next set of images for 10 seconds or more, if i am impatient and I click again on the same wining image the second set of images will just appear for a moment and disappear and I will get the third set of images (which means that I just voted on a second set of images "blindly" and for course in many cases I just might given the vote for a bad image.

    SOLUTION: If pixoto server is in question then better server is needed, if internet connection is the problem, well nothing can be done from their side.

    4. As suggested by several others I am sure there are players that are just "clicking away" in order to collect points needed to upload or unpause their images. They are not interested in hurting anybodies chances but are to lazy to watch and think about the images they are voting for.

    SOLUTION: No idea! :-)

    Cheers,
    • Thanks for the feedback Sasha. We could allocate more power to some voters but this wouldn't really help the problem of people being unhappy with the bad votes. They would still see those and if they didn't know they had less impact than others they would be upset. Also - I don't think the major critisim above is about the top images on the site. There seems to be some consensus that the site is doing a good job of finding the really exceptional images and putting them on the top. The criticism seems, in my opinion, to be more focused on the images that are not the best on the site - but are seen as being better than many of the images they are losing to. This is an unfortunate consequence of our pausing methodology which gives images only a limited chance to "make it to the big leagues". Bad votes tend to average our over 100 votes and not be much of a factor - but over 6 or 10 votes a few bad ones can set an image back.

      You're absolutely right about the size of ImageDuel images. Focus, grain, etc often get's ignored. Unfortunately given the size of most browsers we can't increase the size of ImageDuel images safely. We also think a zoom function would only be used by a minority of voters. We might be able to use animation here to show both images full screen and then have users make a choice. We'll look into that.

      We're trying to make ImageDuel as fast as we can. If you experience any poor performance in ImageDuel (like a 10 second delay) please report it so we can trying to figure out when it is happening.

      As far as people "clicking away" - we have an easy way to catch that behavior (and we do) however given that the bad votes are still showing up (and we don't tell people their votes are discounted) people have the perception that those votes are counting. A release this week will fix that.

      Thanks again for your feedback.
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  • how can a pic go backwards in points when it wins 3 out of 4 duals? i think that happened to me? oh well, i am not sure how much longer i am gonna keep trying ...every time i get a shot over 600 it undoubtedly goes backwards...makes me wonder....i am not saying my work is the best out there but i have been told i can take a pretty good portrait.....babies and girls without something on their head just dont stand much of a chance, lol.............my granddaughter was so depressed that she lost to a badly edited old man, said its gonna leave scars, i laughed till i cried....
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  • Denise, you have to look at the number of points of the images you beat or lose to, not only the simple lose/win ratio.

    When your image comes to 600 it is more often matched against the images that have more points than yours (eg. 650 or more which probably means they are in TOP20 position) to establish if your image "deserves" higher points total, and that's when it becomes harder to win since the quality of your opponents.

    Wins against the images that are ranked lower than yours doesn't do much for your overall score, but if you lose against on of those and you do not win against the higher ranking images that is when your score goes down.

    Losing against inferior image is something we all experienced, but if your image has more then 100 duels, three or four loses against images like that will not affect your final score much.

    Keep up with great work and don't be discouraged since having a score of close to 600 is great achievement itself.
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  • I’m fine just now, thanks!
    Janette Fraser: Absurd Thought for the day... If, while walking through a
    crowd, everyone was munching, slurping and sucking on a different sweet than
    you are... would the lemon bonbon form an alliance with the sherbet lemon?
    And would the rhubarb and custard feel any essential kinship?

    Stian Kjørsvik: But yes - I think similar tastes would probably recognize
    each other, but not necessarity form alliances, unless for effective
    cooperational purposes or something, hehe :)

    Janette Fraser: lol. Yes - to co-operate they would have to be able to
    recognise the similarities of their shared Lemon and Vanilla ingredients...
    but on the other hand, the Lemon bonbon is a different shape, colour,
    texture and density to the Sherbert lemon. Although they cannot co-operate
    with something they cannot recognise, the danger of the Lemon Bonbon and
    Sherbert lemon position is that their relationship maybe become
    overly-characterised by their shared similarities to the detriment of their
    ability to explore their differences cooperatively. If the Sherbert lemon
    and the Lemon bonbon did form an alliance based on only their similarities,
    it's going to be of very little use to them when they meet the awesome
    strangeness of the Cadburies Cream Egg.

    Janette Fraser: It may be an absurd thought, but you can apply the same
    principles to the relationship of nation states in the United nations, and
    also in any and all relationships a human being can have with another one.
    :-)

    93's.

    How would we apply this to pixoto? :-)
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  • well if the bonbon was nasty, had 1/2 the sugar it should have and was lumpy and had coconut and should have had powdered chocolate on it hopefully even the lemon sherbert would be smart enough not to eat it!
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  • thank you sasha for the kind words and the explaination....
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  • Hey All - I just wanted to let you know that the current release of Pixoto ads in a few ImageDuel enhancements that prevent bad votes. We are building out two additional major enhancements which will launch next week.

    In addition - for all duels from this point forward if the votes don't count, we won't show them. This should give you a better sense of what is really happening in the voting on your images.
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  • Explain how this photo beat the one below it. I think pixoto is biased.

    http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...

    http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...

    to make matters worse the bottom photo is now 1 and 5. it has been resubmitted about 4 times
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  • Just popped into say: the change to the system does seem to be working. I'm seeing a lot less bad voting decisions. Great stuff. Thanks for listening and doing your best to respond Pixoto. :-)
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  • Janette - I can't tell you how happy it makes me to hear you say that. We've still got a few more improvements coming but glad to know we are making a difference.
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  • Jason- yes, I review my duels with far more gratification. I can look at my picture and say: yes - this won against mine - and then appreciate the greater skill, dramatic content, or mood context preference impact of the winning shot.

    You don't blame the sea for making waves. :-)
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  • This reply was removed on 2012-05-23.
    see the change log
  • Funny Games, Not Olympic Games!

    At Pixoto, where else?

    Mr. Kiefer says that Pixoto algorithm is perfect. The algorithm takes us our voting rights when we vote against some "majority pattern" (what a bloated logic, considering that we Authors present here our Creative Works, some of us, even present genuine photography (not highly processed shapshotography). The Art is not the Math!!!! Nor Stats!!!

    Thanks God, we now have at least This One Algorithm in the entire world that Knows How To Select Real Art From Crap!!! :) :) :)

    So, let's see the "World's Famous Algorithm" at work.

    This is my image:
    http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...

    It won it's first two duels, exactly the fifth and sixth one, against this very fine photographs:

    a) http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...
    b) http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...

    and later...

    c) http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...
    (Absolutely fantastic image, faaaar better than mine!! I Don't Want That Win!!)

    d) http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...
    (finally ONE IMAGE that is evidently not as good as mine)

    First 3 out of 4 images that lost to mine are more than good, and one of them - excellent!! And I am not sure if my image won rightfully here. I wouldn't mind loosing 3 of 4 Duels, at all!

    These are images that have won over my image:

    1. http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...
    2. http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...
    3. http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...
    4. http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...
    5. http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...
    6. http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...

    Last DUEL OUTCOME is An Absolute Ace Of Art!!!!! ROFL!!!

    Thanks for your precious time!! Now that you go and see my image, you should not get it in duels, as Mr. Kiefer wrote on the blog. If you get the image in your duels anyway, please just skip them (not to vote biased) and take a couple of minutes to "report" it here.

    Let's close the "Allmighty Algorithm Tour" with one more example! Like you had not enough fun right now, please donate my just a one more minute of your precious time and compare following two images:

    Loosing image (normally, mine!) :)
    http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...

    Winning image (normally, not mine!!!) :)
    http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...

    There were many more "patriotic voted" duels against my image. Cooooool!

    And now, Ladies and Gentlemen,

    We can see the efects of Famous Algorithm that follows (allows) the twisted logic. Long Live The Algorithm!

    The Art Is Dead! At Least At Pixoto!! :) :) :) :) :)

    Your Fellow Tog,

    Tigi Borg
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  • tigi,

    what meaning does this phrase have? im lost

    "Last DUEL OUTCOME is An Absolute Ace Of Art!!!!! ROFL!!!"
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  • Hi Michelle! :)

    The "Last DUEL OUTCOME" means the outcome of duel between my and last listed image in my post.

    And ROFL means "Rolling On Floor Laughing"!

    Matter of fact, I even can't be disappointed by such voting outcome. Not any more. I can only laugh at it. And not only at it, but also at the expressions from Pixoto reps here, that state the algorithm being excellent and bringing "the best images to the top".

    I would like, indeed, to see that algorithm work correctly. I don't mind if it passes all, really ALL votes from all voters, no matter how the outcome of dueling will be.

    But, while some really good people and togs have lost their votes here, e.g. their votes are discounted and are worth less (or nothing), compared to other vote(r)s, Pixoto fails day by day on all human merit scales.

    Yes, it may have more "players", more "great images" and votes submitted every day, but it is not due to Quality Of Service, the site is providing to the gathered community, but merely to nice look on the front page, and the promotional ad stating "Win up to 2000$ in weekly contests".

    We are here to present and compare our creative works: photographs and digital images. The Site claims that it "brings the best images forward, to the top". I presented in my post only One of Many Thousands of examples that it simply does not come close to reality, however good idea of Pixoto was and regardless of all the efforts the Crew puts in maintaining it.

    I Want My Images that are of lesser quality than opposing in duels - to lose. The same logic I have for my images that are better than opposing... to win these duels.

    Jadranka and Her Daughter were deprived the right to vote, although they still earn awards here, not now not ever by friendly support. They were "flagged" by this bloated "Worlds Famous Algorithm". They can't get their votes countable, because they always voted for better images, based on objective artistic and photographic criteria.

    Many other players' votes don't count. "Just to make voting more fair"!

    And, we see how these remaining "fair voters" vote, and what comes out of duels on their computers.

    Have a nice weekend and join us in healthy laughing over all these funny games here! Olympics are still some 2 months away! :) :) :) :) :)
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  • Real show at Pixoto (under the radar of the Famous Algorithm):

    Loosing image:
    http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...

    Winning image:
    http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...

    Enjoy The Show! We'll be back with more testimonials from "the battlefield" as some people think of comparing creative works! :)

    Long live the Fair Voting and The Algorithm Allmighty! :)
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  • It' s Me again! Can't even laugh any more. Time to get serious!!

    Looser:
    http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...

    Winner:
    http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...

    I kindly ask you players to give here your analysis of these two images. Which is really better and why!

    I WILL Appreciate all the constructive comments, based on proven artistic merits!

    Thank You All! :)
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  • im not so daft as to not know what rofl means, im more confused regarding your "ace of art" comment in the middle. It seems to me that the last image you are concerned with has the weekly challenge theme to the letter, its got a flag and its a "traveling flag" not a boring, pristine flag on a pole.... many others too are the same in your list, american flag on british coast (it obviously travelled to get there) and flutterby is a flag that has seen many moons by the looks of it. Dipali S's image you lost too shows no patriotism which leads me to your next concern

    as for "patriotic voted", I have noticed that many people have submitted more than one flag to this weeks challenge, suggesting entrants arent that bothered which flag they enter, its up to voters to decide which is the best image, if you are really bothered about these "patriotic votes" why dont you submit a different countries flag and see how far it climbs? just a thought.

    one more point, no one in the world can build and use an algorithm which factors in human free will, we will always get a certain set of people who vote for what they like rather than what is best, some people even do it subconsciously and dont think they are doing wrong, its just something we have to put up with.

    have a good weekend
    • <>

      Michelle, why is that so wrong. Everyone here seems to be missing the point that Art is subjective. Technically correct is fine but I've seen lots of photos here that are just that, but in my opinion - their crap! yet week after week their at the top. It's a matter of personal opinion, and you are correct that an algorithm can not factor that in the the mix. 99% of people will judge a photo emotionally first before they look to the technical aspect. Personally regarding Tigi's post above - I don't care for either photo and had they come up for me in an image duel against each other I would have skipped voting and moved to the next set of photos. Perhaps one of the photo nerds here could explain what is technically correct about the loser and why it should have won over the other photo, because I don't see it.

      Based on an interview I heard on TWIP the founders of this site intended it to a community. A place to share and have a bit of fun at the same time. Not to be a site for the technically obsessed.
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  • Michelle, thank for your answer. I see that you don't care about my national flag and it is your right to do so.

    However, I live in the place where that one flag very proudly waves in the sun and wind every day and we don't have here any American, British or other honored flags to take pictures.

    I assume that more people would also take pictures of Croatian flags, "over there" in US or GB, if they could find them. But it is not that easy, too.

    So, while we respect any nationality and it's symbols, we help each other(s) to live in a beautiful and peaceful world! :)

    And, the little school of geography. City of Novalja on Pag island is in the middle of Croatian side of Adriatic sea, Northern part of Mediterranean sea.

    Check this map:

    https://maps.google.hr/maps?hl=hr&q=g...

    You see, it is not just a "two hours ride" to the US, to take pictures of Stars Stripped Banner, an Honored American Flag. It takes much longer. Furthermore, due to Very Justified security reasons, it is not allowed to approach US Embassy in Zagreb (Croatian capital), waving the camera in hands. That would not be allowed and I respect it.

    Therefore, however do I like your post, I must disagree on it's part of "going out taking pictures of other national flags". It is not the same as going to mall to shop groceries! :)

    Once more, thank you for your dear post! Enjoy the weekend! :)
    • Tigi,
      sorry, you seem to have mis-understood my comments.
      "boring flag on a pole" is NOT my view, I was trying to put across the apparent views of some voters here, like I said, some people vote for what they like (what appears visually pleasing to them) and not that which is artistically better.

      imho ALL national flags are a symbol of honour and pride for the respective countrymen involved, therefore I have respect for them too, I would like to think visitors to our country feel the same way, but its not always true.
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