voting for bad images

i think folks are voting for lesser quality images to improve their odds of winning....since we can see those we duel against its kinda obvious, is my work perfect NO, but no way a blurry poorly composed shot should beat a good composition that is sharp and appealing.....i don't understand...is there a way for admin to see this too? seems a bit unfair to me....
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  • 1
    Hope you have better luck with your request to solve this problem than I had yesterday with the same issue...

    (here's the link to my post about it)
    http://community.pixoto.com/pixoto/to...

    Some friends & I have discussed it, and we think that people are doing some friend/foe voting, voting down of competing images, along with just 'parking' on one side of the duel window and clicking away to get points.

    It took a friend's 16 year old son less than a minute to write a script that would automatically vote in the duels (he's not actually using it, just wrote it as a sort of experiment). If the 16 year old kid has done it, you can bet others have too.

    Anyway, good luck. Personally, I've had better luck on sites that have actual photographers judging the submissions as opposed to these where the public votes. Most of the 'happy snappers' that gravitate toward these sites wouldn't know a well shot image if someone slapped 'em with it...
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  • Jackie - couple points based on your assessment above:

    1) 75% of the votes on Pixoto come from photographers who have won awards - we think we've got the best voting pool out there.
    2) If you try to choose the lower ranked image so that you bring down the votes of a higher ranked image - we will catch you. We have very sophisticated algorithms to detect this. You won't know we've caught you though.
    3) if you vote randomly (i.e. with a bot or software) your votes have no impact on the overall score of images and our algorithms will catch you. (but you won't know it)
    4) not every vote placed on Pixoto counts the same. Some don't count at all. This is the only way we can stop the type of cheating you describe above.
    5) In general, when all is said and done, Pixoto members vote remarkably closely to each other.

    I hope this helps
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  • I’m frustrated
    I've noticed this too. I agree doesn't seem fair and why put up good stuff if it doesn't get anywhere. this has happened to me. Not that I think I'm so great but I do like my work and can't see how some other pictures win that's all.
    • view 1 more comment
    • You're right, it's free. Doesn't make it any less heartbreaking to put so much work into crafting an image just to see it lose to an obvious snapshot that had little thought or effort put into it. It's too bad that people who join these sites where the public votes seem to have little interest in learning the technical details of photography and how to 'read' a photograph...
    • Jackie I understand and it has happened to me as well. The problem is that you just never know who is voting for those images. Try not to let it get you down and just have fun with it if you can. : )
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  • I don't think its really pair to put the links up here, I happen to know who took the second shot.....and all tastes are different.
    I do see badly blurred shots with over 70 wins though and it puzzles me, one in paticular.They are surrounded by excellant quality shots.
    Is it because people aren't really looking at the shot, or know the person who posted it?
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  • I’m confused!!
    Why are people buying votes for me and my photos got pause? I thought you buy more votes to vote for the people you think that is good to bring theirs to the top but it is the other way around? I don't understand this at all!
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  • I sometimes buy votes for photos that have been paused because I think they are great shots.........and it does not even matter that they are in the same category as mine...........it does not matter. Sometimes I think people are busy or away and dont know their shots have been paused.
    Some people have done this for me...........so I pay it forward.
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  • I’m sad!
    I can't even buy votes! I don't know! It just does not give me the option. I would like to buy votes for the nice people who bought votes for me but I guess I cannot. Not sure how that works either.
    • view 3 more comments
    • I signed up and voted. Then I got the points to submit my photos. What I don't understand is where do I click to buy votes for others? Does it come up randomly or on every duel? Not sure if I am blind or what, Wayne. BTW, I checked out the other site and they ask for a minimum of donation. I don't know if they are unbiased or not.
    • If you have points (or credits...I stand corrected), you will see them next to your name at the top right corner. On the leader board page, if you see an image you like and it is paused, it will have a button that looks like > (play) on the bottom left of the image. If you click on this, you have bought voting credits for that image and you should see your credits lessen by 5 credits. If you don't see the "play" arrow, the image is not paused.
      What other site are you referring to? This one is completely free.

      Never mind...I just saw it was the site Jackie was talking about. Haven't checked that one out yet.
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  • Priscilla, if you are usin IE it doesn't always work, I've had to switch to Firefox for this site
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  • I’m happy!
    I am using Firefox just for pixoto. Not sure why nothing is working, LOL. I am not worried...just a bit confused and at time, frustrated. Thanks, Terry! BTW, congrats on the win! I see some of your work and it is fabulous!!!
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  • 4
    Everyone sees things differently... it's all subjective... "one person's junk is another person's treasure"...and, you're not gonna get rich on this site anyway... Just enjoy it and have fun :-) JMHO
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  • True, Kirk! I love seeing all the great photos here! There are a lot of great photographers! I especially enjoy the high fashion work which I don't see at other sites.
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    • view 7 more comments
    • Thank you Priscilla. I looked at your work and I don't think I would give up on winning if I were you. You have some great photos and as good a chance as anyone else and better than most.
    • Thanks, Wayne! I am just having fun!
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  • 4
    Remember, voting is left to anyone. The voting audience changes by the minute, depending on who's logged on at the time. Additionally, the negative impact on voting seems (from what I've seen) to occur at the very beginning. Once you get up to about 500 points it looks like it takes more than one loss of the same picture to have an effect; however, when an image is just starting out in a duel (at say, less than 100 points), one bad vote seems to impact it more, causing it to fail quickly. But, there is something I've learned to circumvent this problem.

    Since the voting audience changes by the minute, what I've found useful is to merely resubmit my images if they don't do well in voting. I resubmit failed photos at different times of the day, and sometimes wait a day or more before resubmitting them. It requires you first delete the photos and get more points by dueling, but it has worked for me. If after submitting failing photos 3 times and they continue to fail with bad scores, chances are (IMHO), the scores are likely accurate.

    As an example, the other day I submitted 3 similar photos of ice in a glass using time exposure and light painting. These 3 are currently at the top of my recent's at: http://www.pixoto.com/nathancool/recent

    Upon the first submission, one pic rose to 500 points in less than an hour, where the other 2, which are nearly identical, could not even reach 200 points. I waited until the next morning, then resubmitted the failing two photos, but they were failing again. I waited a few hours and resubmitted those failed 2 again, and now they are doing well; in fact, the one that was failing the most now has the highest score of all three shots.

    My advice is to resubmit failed photos, which will raise your chances of getting fair voters. If after resubmitting a few times your photos are still failing, then perhaps you need to take a closer look at your work. In fact, I'd be more than willing to critique anyone's pictures, and give my unbiased opinion on how it compares to other pics it may be failing against. Feel free to contact me with the URL's of the two pics, and I'll give you my two cents :) This, btw, is something I suggested Pixoto do for their members, allowing people to get advice from other photographers. Until they do it, I'd be more than happy to help where I can (I'm no Nat Geo photog, but I'll be happy to give my view if you'd like).

    -Nathan
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  • I thought you could only submit photos one time. Unless you change them up a bit.
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  • I wonder if the one time means you can't enter the same shot in more than one catergory?
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  • I’m confused
    The way I understand is you can enter only one time in whatever category but if you delete it, you can re-upload an image for a different week or month.
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  • Darrin, I'm inclined to agree with you. I have no problem with an image beating another when it's simply a matter of opinion or taste, and both images have merit. But when there are technical errors and sloppy editing......then it's just plain wrong.
    I do feel that there are some here that have figured out how to 'game' the system.
    Because the images that I have issues with are currently in the lead, I will not post them. ....for fear of appearing like I have a case of 'sour grapes'........
    but should they win...........I will.
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  • i try hard not to let anything impact my judging but sometimes i regret my choice right after finally hitting the pic....like man, i should have picked the other one....doesn't happen often but it does happen....but thats generally when there are two fabulous shots, wonder if we can have a dislike both choice or like both? hmmmmm
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  • This reply was removed on 2012-02-22.
    see the change log
  • 3
    Check out this decision...

    This won:
    http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...

    against this:

    http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...

    I mean.... what? And there are tons of examples.

    Voting should be restricted to only those who have won awards, and untill you have won an award, your voting should either a) not count or b) count about 5 times less. If something isn't done then pixoto is going to get a bad reputation and photographers will simply vote with their feet when it comes to the site, because someone else will do the same voting concept (it's hardly difficult to program).

    I vote: change the system!
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  • And another thing... AFTER I'd posted the comment above, the picture of the Cat (second link) suddenly developed a darker 'band' across the top of it, which wasn't there earlier! How on earth did that happen Pixoto?

    *deleting and resubmitting*
    • I've seen this in my own photo duels. Like I said prior in this thread some people don't really understand photography. They think snapshots are the same. Maybe they are just starting out or don't really care, but surely you can tell a good shot from a bad one. I don't understand it myself.
    • I agree. I think there are people voting that have never considered (or been told) what basic elements they should look for in a photograph. But on the other hand - I think perhaps we can also be more proactive about education and share our experience on pixoto to improve the standard here.

      Now - I'm not the best tog in the world (or even close) but I feel I'm qualified enough to comment on pictures with basic errors with constructive criticism. And I invite and would *really appreciate* anyone commenting on my work with constructive criticism as well.

      Today - I've commented on 'a cat with the blue mouth', 'the cat with just half an eye in the shot', and the 'glowing fluorescent goat'. Just because we want people to vote for our shots, shouldn't make us shut up when we can offer constructive criticism, because it seems even when we are quiet then we become the victims of ignorant voters. At least if we say something, we can benefit the community in the long run.

      You don't have to be nasty about anyone else's work, and we should all (if we aspire to pro standards) have thicker skins and be willing to receive constructive criticism. I regularly look at the pics I've lost to as the votes come in - because I want to learn and improve! And people will know that I don't have a problem in loosing to a good shot because when I can praise a shot that's taught me something - then I do!

      But I still think that voting should be a two tier system - with votes from award winners counting for more.
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  • It's gonna happen. But it happens to everyone, so I don't think in the end it really matters. The only thing I can suggest is make sure your photo gets 30 votes at a minimum, so it doesn't get eliminated by people voting randomly to get credits. I've had a few pictures that were eliminated (paused) quickly after posting, but after buying votes a few times, rose with scores into the 600s.

    Also, don't take it personally if you lose to a horrible image. Some votes are definitely random.

    It all comes down to some people being bad seeds, and I don't think there is much the site can do about it.
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  • There's a great little site called photoshop disasters, that's not only a huge laugh, but that highlights where people go wrong with image editing. :-)

    http://www.psdisasters.com/

    It even features a cover image that has somehow got past the editor of Cosmopolitan! How did that happen?! lol. Well - it just goes to show that it's not only on Pixoto that people drop the ball. Most of the errors we see on the site here aren't anywhere near that bad, but voting could be improved if Pixoto wrote up a voting guide for photoshop neophytes: for instance:

    When I first saw Dave Boyds very cute 'Maine Coon Kitten' this week, I said 'ahhh' (probably the first reaction of everyone). http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...

    He's managed to get a score of 672 for the image, BUT - if you take the time to actually look at the image then you realise you can see he's put a sharpening effect on the eyes because the kitten was very slightly out of focus. He's also got a bland 'smudge' on the fur by the face that looks odd, and he's tried to put the whiskers back he rubbed out out earlier but unfortunately they don't match. Another error is that his masking has left a grey area around the rear of the cat, when the background is orange/red. This could have been corrected with the proper manipulation of the area.

    Now - I love most of Dave's work and I think he's a smashing Tog, better than me in most respects. It's not my intention to 'bash him', but the obvious errors on this image along with the high score and #4 current position this week in 'Cats' caught my attention. I can't in all honesty think this image out of his portfolio deserves the points it's received.

    People just aren't looking properly! A Pixoto 'Voting Guide' for Photoshop Neophytes would be a valuable resource to the community and might go a long way to improve matters arising from bad voting decisions on the site.

    Another thing that might also act as a preventative to bad voting decisions, would be if there was a timer placed on Imagedual so that players had to spend a minimum amount of time properly considering the merits of the images they're being asked to vote upon.
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  • Here's one for the books. Tell me (honestly, I can take it), how my image here:

    http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...

    ...failed against these:

    http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...
    and
    http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...
    and
    http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...

    None of those are even in focus, they have noise, and some were washed out with a high flash.

    Am I missing something?

    -Nathan
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  • Ok - in the first of your lost duels, the competition had a shot that scored high on dramatic content. Sometimes you see a shot that has enough dramatic content to overcome it's defects. Also... you were shooting at 1600 ISO while he was shooting at 800 - i.e. cleaner picture quality. You might have got voted down for the slight grain, or for the grey residue of a mask you left around the outside of the cat as you tried to make it look as if you'd bracketed the depth of focus.

    Again - the second one beat yours in the category of dramatic content. You're is a shot of a nice household pet. Tracie Christine's image was a shot of 'Bastet' - Cat Goddess. Although there is far too much flash in this picture it does result in a picture with more impact. Your lighting and colouration of the background are uninspiring and dull. It does not contribute anything to the shot. And composition wise, Tracie's shot was better because a profile shot - capturing the eyes in that position to emphasise the shape of the pupil, is more unusual and therefore more interesting to examine.

    And the third one? Interaction between two subjects in a picture makes the mirror neurons in the brain fire off analysing for social activity, so the picture receives more attention from the viewer. The more a picture can hold and captivate your attention, the more you are likely to like it. As for the picture itself... I have loads of them in my 'throw away' bins. In this instance the dramatic content does not justify the obvious errors of the shot in either the original or the post processed work. You would never settle for a shot like this if you were looking to buy a picture for any type of publication. There are too many great photographs taken by fantastic Togs to bother with something of inferior quality. Whereas, I might use your shot for an advert for Pet insurance or something. It shouts out the message that there is safety in the ordinary. The white walls. The plumbing. The brown door. And the theme: The Office Cat?

    So - although I think 2 of the decisions were correct at the end of the day, I also think your Cat is saleable if you target your market right. Hurrah eh!?
    • view 2 more comments
    • btw, I resubmitted that photo after doing some Lightroom adjustments to bring out the foreground and clean out some of the noise. Last I looked, it was now up over 475, and from what I watched earlier today it beat out the pics it previously lost against:

      http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...

      Still not the best I've done though, but your critique definitely helped (be better if I could just retake that one).

      Also, what's the link to your Pixoto page...I can't seem to see if from this discussion board.

      -Nathan
    • Yeah - much better!

      http://www.pixoto.com/alrah

      Not much there at the moment. I've been doing tests when I've time. I load up 5 photographs of a hill in various states of correction and saturation, then collect and collate the voting. The results look quite interesting but I won't comment until I'd done a few more yet.

      Alrah.
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  • I’m frustrated
    1
    After several weeks, this topic is still quite annoying. It is obvious that some voters intentionally vote for bad images, esp. with newly uploaded images.
    I think you can easily confirm that by checking your logs / statistics or simply by spot tests. So what are you planning to do about this?!
    • view 1 more comment
    • Jason, thanks for all the hard work on improving this. One suggestion though: Would it be possible to only show the image duel history for the "valid" votes? I really like to see what I lost and won against...it really helps me to see what I did right and what I can improve on. Having invalid history shots doesn't tell me how my shots truly compared.

      Thanks again Jason,

      -Nathan
    • Yes! We're working on it.
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  • I'm currently quite confused about the leading photo in the Travel category. To acknowledge some bias, I should mention that I do have an image competing somewhat closely with it, but I think I'm being objective. The image was posted by an exceptional photographer and I think the rest of his gallery is stunning, but this picture is barely more than a snapshot and surely doesn't compare to the ten following it. If I'm wrong let me know.
    • I think it's a nice shot, definitely worth an upvote. It may not be the most stunning, but I think it would have a very good chance of betting out other shots. I am though a little surprised it's at #1, as it beat out what looks like a lot of HDR shots. It really is though subjective, since this isn't really a slam-dunk bad...just so-so good, IMHO.
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    • view 2 more comments
    • I saw such naked kids and reported the image. While it may be "just normal" in "their" part of the world to walk naked, it really doesn't have anything to do on photography, on the net...

      And, today I saw and reported very disgusting image of dead woman being dueled in the Journalism. Image seem to originate from East Asia, as were a couple of very brutal images last week, displaying some kind of military torture...

      They even left into duels some "photoshop art" (Good help them), with extreme brutality... I reported that too...

      It looks that there's more sick people here...

      "Gang from Zagreb" just mirrored the situation from our local popular photo site ( www.pticica.com ) to Pixoto. They do the same "at home", irritating most of decent photographers, but on local site, most of the still active people (from some 19.000+) seem to be quiet and do nothing to step in their way. I did, and was brutally insulted by "The Gang". I ignore such people and believe in quality of work, of real art.

      So, if Pixoto doesn't do something systematic against any "gang voting" many of us will turn away and return to other sites. I have my personal one that needs a lot of "houskeeping" anyway.
    • And... the "Greb gang" as you call it, has done anything they could to kill my images, as well as images of some other independent photographers from our community.

      The only difference now is that "Greb gang's" nasty actions are just like a drop in the sea, comparing to these "patriotic Indonesians", who emerge in hundreds on Pixoto.

      One way or another, none of my images have reached ImageScore of 600 and I don't expect any of them to get in 600+ class until Pixoto does some very huge voting policy overhaul! :)
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  • I’m frustrated
    Every day, here on Pixoto we can witness more and more ORGANIZED TEAM VOTING.

    If "Croatian Zagreb Team" was annoying, what to say about flood of Indonesian images in top positions, be they good or bad?!!

    This image...

    http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...

    ... surged to a 3rd overall position in just a couple of hours, and I am VERY SURE that it's "success" is a result of INDONESIAN TEAM VOTING!!

    Please, do what you can to PREVENT "PATRIOTIC VOTING", e.g. please implement some kind of filter in the duels, preventing people from the same country voting for the images of their respective nationality authors'!!

    While it might be a hard task, it will certainly help limit massive cheating!!
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  • I hope some day, we will get back the old duels. I mean, like it was a few months ago. Fair, no cheating. The way it works now is too frustating and I know I'm not alone
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  • 1
    Dear Michelle, if there were fair duels at the time you describe, then there would be no chance for some of my country fellows (guys as well as ladies) to parade here with so high positions, with millions of Pixoto points and to act quite better photographers then they are.

    No way, some of them would get even close to place in Top 100, not to speak of Top 10 or even much higher. Some members of their clan were obviously banned or excluded, and some remain here.

    But, let me repeat, "Greb Gang" as they call it here is piece of cake when compared to Indonesians. Please look at February Leaderbord in Transportation > Boats. It seems that THEY OWN this subcategory, with about 150 their images in Top 200!! This points not to special quality, although there are some very good images, but merely to some kind of agreement to displace everyone else out out of awarding positions!

    The simplest solutions would be to:

    1. exclude duels in the same category where player has posted her/his images and
    2. filter out duels for players from same country and
    3. REMOVE identification of images with players in leaderboards, at least for the current month of competition, when an image is submitted!

    I believe, Pixoto Crew will do this and more, so we will be great step towards more fair competition.
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  • I'm pretty sure that by now - Pixoto are as pissed off as we all are. I mean - these guys didn't get into the biz for this crapola and I bet they remind each other of that. The Pixoto peeps are Photo Eds (the same peeps who used to run Photoshelter... am I right?). And so this is a case of 'not letting a few bad apples spoil the whole damn bunch!'

    So we all have to get smart.

    I support Pixoto - because everything changes and problems can be overcome... and I think a few bully boys can be scared off with the water Canons... oh Horus! That went all ... archetypal there... lol. :D

    The worst thing we can do is let our spirits drop. I'm seeing Pixoto changing and combating the menace with the help of people on these boards that are reporting it... so I think instead of bitching right now, I want to commend you guys for co-operating and bringing us all together over this issue.

    Thanks. :-)
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  • I also hope it will be arranged, because this site is much better than many similar ones, like photorush. Still, I must be very proud that one of my picture still got a score above 600, because I don't even have Photoshop.
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  • It does seem that on certain categories some form of gang voting is happening...its obvious,and a bit sad, that the top photos are all from the same region..... It feels like theres no point in entering because you won't get anywhere because you don't live there.
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  • I think Tigi's idea about filtering out duels for players from the same country is good but what will happen with the american ones? I guess (not sure) that the most players are from the States, so if all americans don't play the duels for other american, will there be enough players??? I little confusing. I don't know how this all works and if they do this with only two or three countries, is this not discrimination? Why can't people just be fair? I thought everybody just want to see if people like and appreciate their work. So folks, just be fair please
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  • Jason,

    I am really impressed by the solution suggested by "Tigi Borg" 3 days back of "excluding the players" from VOTING the images from the same "category" in which they have uploaded the images.

    Although it will be troublesome if they upload images in a larger chunk of categories/subcategories. This may also help them boost their friend's images in other categories/subcategories and vice versa.

    One solution could be that a person is allowed to vote in his categories "only" if the images are recently uploaded.

    What do you say???
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  • Hi Anshul!

    If each of us really participates the contest as a single player and not as a part of some large (very important term) team, then my idea may be worth.

    However, taking a look at "Transportation / Boats" or "Photojournalism" or a few other categories, gives a tremendous impression that many folks here do not participate as single players, but rather as big big and well organized teams.

    Even having one or two friends can't be enough to boost each others images in same or different categories. What number of votes can it bring? 1, 2, 5? But having "at hand" approximately 50, 100 or more "patriots" or "team players" can skyrocket someone (or each others) images quickly to 600 or even 700+ ImageScore.

    The reason not to be able to vote in the category where you post your images is simple: BIAS. Nobody posts his or her images to be dumped in a trash. Therefore, any voting in the same category may be biased or calculated (as you suggested mentioning friends voting for each other).

    So, the lesser potential for biased voting, the less problems shall there be.

    BTW, you have seen the Indonesian domination in "Boats" or in "Journalism"! Haven't you! Then please check, to understand my idea! :)
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    • That's a great thing to do. I respect you a lot for doing that. That seems really fair to everyone.
    • I understood your point completely, Tigi and what I said earlier also pointed out the same thing. What I meant to say was that if a person uploads images in say all the categories and then if he is NOT allowed to vote for the categories he has uploaded images then it will be a problem. He won't be able to earn credits to upload/support his images. That's the reason why I told it will be better if he is allowed "only" to select the "latest" images in his duels so that he almost has NO clue which image will go to the top.
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  • Perhaps we're going about this the wrong way...

    If people are grouping into tribes to try and affect voting, then why not have a separate voting game where they can just get on with it and leave the pixoto site for "Individual works & Individual Voters" - alone. Make it fun for them and more appealing than bothering us Individually Minded Togs! Call it... tribal-tog or something. lol.
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  • 1
    I was the one that originally reported the really bad Croatian images that were scoring really highly with crazy win/loss rates and got the ball rolling on investigating what was going on with those pictures...

    I'm not so sure if there is Indonesian cheating going on. There photos seem legitimately good. Can someone send an example of a really bad image that seems to have scored 700+?

    I checked out the photojournalism photos like Tigi suggested and they are all really really good photos. A few of the photos that are under "boats" look low resolution and oversharpened, but I bet in the voting screen when they are smaller they look fine. An example would be:
    http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...
    but even that is an interesting photo with how clear and blue the water is.

    I really think it's just a bunch of good photographers shooting really interesting or photogenic topics, especially when the subject matter is so foreign and therefor interesting to voters in the US.
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    • We do. If you see the same picture in two different categories, report it! Check their profile to be sure though. It'll show up twice on their profile.
    • I had a look at the pic and thats photoshop..... the water is so clear, you can see a shadow, but you cannot see the rest of the boat under the water....... that doesnt make sence, as far as i know boats sits about half way in water......its not just a flat pice sitting right on top....... can anybody else see that ?
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  • Personally... I'm not sure how much to believe about this nationalistic voting phenomenon we're hearing about.

    I'm living in the North of England, which is a place rather beset by a lack of sunny days and crisp horizons. I see fellow togs in Scotland having the same problem as I do - which is this - for 'our land' to compete with some of the places that has 'the light', it means we have to over-saturate and over-vibrancy our images until they look like they could have been found oversea's in order to conform to the expectations of the voting majority (that live in 'the light').

    Don't get me wrong here - I can only observe this phenomena as an outsider because I lived in Andulucia for 2 years (plenty of 'light'). When I came back to the UK I noticed that the place looked very dark to my sun naturalised eyes, and for a few months my vision struggled to find the refinement that it was used to - before I could really 'see' the subtle colour and beauty of my native landscape once again...

    In Landscape - we could really do with sub-categories of Northern Equinox and Southern Equinox regions, or else extreme Northern or Southern latitudes are always going to loose out just because of the light expectation/conditioning of the voter.
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  • Journalism should be at least a category displaying photos about events, happenings, and some kind of "not every day life".
    Tigi, I totally agree. That's also the reason why I asked long time ago for a food category. Food fotography is very nice but I don't understand why it must be in the journalism category.
    Janette, nature is a gift and beautiful everywhere. I'm living on an island in Thailand with a lot of light and stunning sunsets everyday but I love to see frog, snow and ice pictures which impress me a lot.
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    • David, I agree with your definition of journalism. But then the same picture (with a 3 mm variation) is put in the categories of boats, landscape, portrait, travel and fine art. And this is not normal.
    • Thank you, Natasha for pointing out this important element of the conversation about Journalism.

      If we accept any photo of any person doing his or her job, or just playing in the backyard or so many images (like in top Journalism positions), we simply do not let real journalism photos to contest in their native group.

      And, I am very very tired of seeing what I see in that category. Many images have absolutely no journalistic value, even the less photographic. They don't deserve to be put in such specific category and their lookalikes appear in so many other categories.

      I agree with you, David, that Sport photography is also a good place (for me) to present some portion of my work. But, why to heaven should really journalist images be chased out it's native category and leave the place to so many not even story tellyng images of simply - poor people?

      Is'n a Roman Chatolic Church Pope visit a great deal stronger story than a photo of kids playing in the river or an old man hanging out his bird cages etc...???

      Unless we stick to categories and to, as far as it can go, dueling within the same - properly feed category, your images will duel the other not compatible, my will compete in a category with so many incompatible images. We will be loosing duels, just because there are "many more of them than us" and not because our images can't match the quality.

      And, I rarely do image editing, but tend to avoid it as much as possible and let people see has my camera really captured.

      Even that could not be told about many leading 100 - 200 images in jorunalism! Shall there be no "wide patriotic front", then 9 out of 10 such "journalistic" works would ever top 300 point score.
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  • Two follow-ups to this thread:
    1) We have created a plan to change the category structure and are looking for feedback. Please see: http://community.pixoto.com/pixoto/to...

    2) We have analyzed the reported phenomenon of country biased voting and have concluded that it is not an issue on Pixoto. More specifically the Indonesians vote for images from their country in EXACTLY the same way that the average of everyone else does. So if we pulled out all of the votes from Indonesia (or Malaysia or the Philippines) the leaderboard would look almost exactly the same as it does now. We DO have a lot of Indonesian photographers (over 750 individual Indonesian photographers have won awards) and they do tend to upload images to categories like "boats" and "photojournalism" so they seem dominant there BUT this is reflective on the quality of their work and not a patriotic bias.
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  • Jason,

    you wrote that there are 750 Indonesian photographers who won the prizes on Pixoto. Well, if they flood a couple of categories, Boats and Journalism, and great deal of their work really does have nothing in common with Journalism, how will remaining 50 or so Croatians, or 10 Slovenians, or 20 Germans, Romanians, Austrians, Italians etc, ever get the chance to compete??

    Yeah, you can't exclude the 750 people "by default". I understand it. You play safe, and that's ok. But your leaderboards show the state "as is" and everyone may, looking at them, see a bit the different image.

    My point: Too many images from Indonesian photographers, many of them very similar one to each other, simply reach the orbit of "600 to 700" points in record breaking short times. It takes only 20 to 30 "fellow patriots" be active at a given time of submitting the image, to boost it above critical 500+ points. And when such images compete mostly again other images posted from the same country, you may be very very, let's say ABSOLUTELY SURE that some of them will get to the top. Math says so, stats say so, life says so. My personal opinion is irrelevant.

    Therefore, being so largely outnumbered in a given category, these other images just end up stuck at the "junk", and never get their fair chance.

    Since many folks here suggested ceasing of Cash Prizes, do it! Go for it and see how some numbers will get smaller and smaller and how many other photographers from other countries will emerge to Pixoto!

    Enjoy the weekend! :)
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  • Tigi,

    I really like the Indonesian photography in general and vote for a lot of those photos, and I don't live in Indonesia. They are just good photographers. I don't think Jason is lying. Like I also said above, I really believe your photos aren't doing well because they are under exposed, over contrasty, and have blocked up shadow areas, not because of a national conspiracy to take over Pixoto.

    Also, he's fixing the categories, but even so, you posted this image under "photojournalism", along with sports pictures and photos of musicians. Why in the world would you be complaining about people mis-posting photos in the journalism category?

    http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...
    http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...
    • David,

      thanks for your time and observations. Probably the people who accredit or hire me, know why they do so and don't call other Togs to do the job. Perhaps, it is based on quality and not the price. But, there's always a place to improve and I am fully aware of that. So, I'll take your remarks into consideration.

      However, I do almost all of my work in ambient light. Sometimes I can't flash due to the nature of event, but many more times I simply go for the genuine atmosphere and not for an image that everyone else would take.

      I don't understand your first doubt about placing this image:

      http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...

      ... in Journalism. If this is not The Core journalist photo, then what is. Here are my fellow journalist Togs doing their (and our) job at tennis ITF Davis Cup match. It is simply the story about us - storytellers! :)

      I have placed intentionally the other image:

      http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...

      ... in Journalism. While the message on the car's rear window speaks about itself, the image is an "walk by capture", and no part of journalist assignment. However, I just wanted to point out that there are so many images in Journalism, really not having any connection with the category, because they tell no evident story about the life, happenings, events.

      Have a nice day! :)
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  • Well, I don't think that my images are not doing well because of the team voting, I admit that some Indonesian pictures are good. But I don't vote for children playing in water when they appear in 'Fine art' (because it is not), or for a boat with a small figure of a man when it appears in the 'Portrait' category, because it is not a portrait. And this misuse of categories is annoying.

    But look, Tigi, it doesn't have to be team voting. It is known that most viewers love pictures of tropical landscapes, especially if they are well-shot (and they are, you can't deny it). You can go to any resource like Pixoto and look at the page of leading images. It will be nearly the same everywhere. Sunsets (very glossy and mostly tropical), flowers, macro shots of insects etc. I am not a fan of this photography, and many pictures I come across in the duels seem to me much more special than what I see on the top page, but there is nothing you can do with a thing called a common taste, only try and get better in what you love to do.

    I still hope that a problem with categories will be solved.
    • Natasha,

      thank you for your comment. Before I even joined Pixoto, there were some 30 or so Croatians present here, and some group of them seem to be voting "very patriotically", e.g. boosting their photographs and skyrocketing sometimes very poor images to the awarding posts. I know that they were here, who they were and how the story ended.

      By that time, there were only about 90.000 images on Pixoto, and about some 5 Million votes. Now, there are more than 400.000 Images and more than 15 Million votes.

      I see, day by day - specifically Indonesian photographers contribute many good images to many categories. There are some categories that are more equally populated with images from all over the world, and a few others (Boats, Journalism) where Indonesian photographs appear in so large numbers, so that they seem to outnumber all other participating images in the respective category.

      Be they good, bad, excellent or pure trash, it is not important. Be they heavily processed or closer to natural camera captures, does play no role. Do they carry any story or not, nobody cares.

      And all they have one thing in common: they reach top or awarding positions with such ease that I haven't seen for any other's images in any category.

      If there was just pure voting on the image quality or story telling, then most of these images would end a good deal lower on the ImageScore scale. I personally award my vote to many images from Indonesian Togs, when I find that images better than their counterpart in duels and when I feel that these images were not intentionally processed to gain a short positive shock on viewer / voter, hiding technical or other weaknesses behind bright shiny colors.

      I do so for EVERY image appearing in duels, not based on knowing or not knowing it's background. However, I find at certain times that mine and other photographer's images intentionally lose in duels against very poor images, and you guess by now, that many of those bad images origin from... you know...

      I am "The Lone Rider", a kind of "Don Quijote", not having problem to face the majority of voices and to stand in front to point to a problem.

      I don't speak only for my own benefit but for common good. If the photographers on the site that claims to be gathering "world's best" do not care too much about the reality and merits, then Pixoto team will be having more and more problems, with shuffling the categories or not.

      Wishing you a nice day and good light! :)
    • Honestly, I mind clearly photoshopped images much more than a big amount of boats coming from a particular country. Because the heavily processed photos do tend to outnumber interesting pictures.
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